jennie and lexi
Just copying and pasting your response to my question on what to do if she chooses to go to the cat
"Jennie, this is going to be one of those cases where you do nothing. If you need to, put the fake cat in an Xpen or wire crate - seen but can't touch."
I have not had a chance to review the game you posted on the forum (thanks again) (I will also copy and paste that here by the way -just so I have it all together it may answer this question I have .
In the game stealing reinforcement you said (week one , game 5)
" At the moment of the dog’s “choice point” the time in space when the dog makes the decision to leave the owner. You as the owner stand paralyzed, not knowing what to do so no consequence is given for the dog’s poor choice. The environment rewards the poor choice of leaving therefore ensuring it will happen again.
The Effect of Criteria:
Inconsistency of your criteria for the dog’s behavior will cause your dog to find reinforcement elsewhere. Are there times your dog is allowed to chase cats, squirrels, other dogs, kids, cars, puppies, etc. EVER? What is your response when you don’t want your dog to go into the pond but he goes anyway? Dogs only understand black and white rules. Sometimes isn’t part of their vocabulary.
Sometimes = Anytime to a dog.
If you allow the dog to be naughty “sometimes” you are giving the dog permission to try this naughty behavior “anytime” in the future to see if now is a time when it will be allowed."
I am curious why today I was to do nothing when I was allowing her to be 'naughty' when she choose to go look at the cat - you will see -yes she turns away and come back to me on her own (no cue ) but technically I had asked something of her which she ignored.
Just trying to wrap my head around this (don't get me wrong I am thrilled she came away and made a good choice )
I also want to say her arousal was high , this is why you see me do a bit of heeling just to calm her and i end with LAT game . Perhaps a high value food would have been better than toy play
"Jennie, this is going to be one of those cases where you do nothing. If you need to, put the fake cat in an Xpen or wire crate - seen but can't touch."
I have not had a chance to review the game you posted on the forum (thanks again) (I will also copy and paste that here by the way -just so I have it all together it may answer this question I have .
In the game stealing reinforcement you said (week one , game 5)
" At the moment of the dog’s “choice point” the time in space when the dog makes the decision to leave the owner. You as the owner stand paralyzed, not knowing what to do so no consequence is given for the dog’s poor choice. The environment rewards the poor choice of leaving therefore ensuring it will happen again.
The Effect of Criteria:
Inconsistency of your criteria for the dog’s behavior will cause your dog to find reinforcement elsewhere. Are there times your dog is allowed to chase cats, squirrels, other dogs, kids, cars, puppies, etc. EVER? What is your response when you don’t want your dog to go into the pond but he goes anyway? Dogs only understand black and white rules. Sometimes isn’t part of their vocabulary.
Sometimes = Anytime to a dog.
If you allow the dog to be naughty “sometimes” you are giving the dog permission to try this naughty behavior “anytime” in the future to see if now is a time when it will be allowed."
I am curious why today I was to do nothing when I was allowing her to be 'naughty' when she choose to go look at the cat - you will see -yes she turns away and come back to me on her own (no cue ) but technically I had asked something of her which she ignored.
Just trying to wrap my head around this (don't get me wrong I am thrilled she came away and made a good choice )
I also want to say her arousal was high , this is why you see me do a bit of heeling just to calm her and i end with LAT game . Perhaps a high value food would have been better than toy play
I haven't watched your video yet, just wanted to address your question about stealing reinforcement.
There is a difference between stealing reinforcement and responding to arousal or curiosity. A dog will check to see if it is something to eat, play with or kill. If it's benign, the dog leaves. You could see that in the video I posted about my RC toys with Piri and Micah. Micah is so use to seeing these toys he was a wee bit curious to see if they'd changed, but otherwise could care less. Piri however, having never seen them before and hearing the monkey laugh and watching it roll around, wanted to find out more and tried to carry it away a couple of times.
There is also the fact that it's not reinforcing if the results are not per definition. Reinforcement makes a behavior stronger or more frequent. You can't call it reinforcement if that doesn't happen.
What happened with the What's Up Ahead game is that since those toys just laying on the ground weren't reinforcing, eventually the dog ignored anything on the ground. Lexi is at this point where I think if she actually got to the cat, it would be so uninteresting that she would soon just ignore it.
Now I'll watch the video :)
There is a difference between stealing reinforcement and responding to arousal or curiosity. A dog will check to see if it is something to eat, play with or kill. If it's benign, the dog leaves. You could see that in the video I posted about my RC toys with Piri and Micah. Micah is so use to seeing these toys he was a wee bit curious to see if they'd changed, but otherwise could care less. Piri however, having never seen them before and hearing the monkey laugh and watching it roll around, wanted to find out more and tried to carry it away a couple of times.
There is also the fact that it's not reinforcing if the results are not per definition. Reinforcement makes a behavior stronger or more frequent. You can't call it reinforcement if that doesn't happen.
What happened with the What's Up Ahead game is that since those toys just laying on the ground weren't reinforcing, eventually the dog ignored anything on the ground. Lexi is at this point where I think if she actually got to the cat, it would be so uninteresting that she would soon just ignore it.
Now I'll watch the video :)
OK !!! That is exactly what I suspected would happen. She was much more interested in playing with you then in the cat. Both when the cat was hiding and when it was not. Yes, she went and sniffed, but on her own she came back and engaged with you.
I would like you to think about a couple of things here. Traditionally in training for distractions, its always been "ignore it at all costs" endeavor. I think this attitude has colored training for a long time and been the cause of needing to totally control the dog. That control manifests in corrections and negative reinforcement tools like e-collars, but I've also seen it in the clicker world where the dog ends up so overly controlled by the human it's hard to tell the dog was clicker trained and not correction trained.
But to me it's always seemed like the elephant in the room. You can't look at it, but you have to keep your attention on it so that you know where it is so that you don't look at it. It creates conflict and confusion and major stress. Try it sometime. Dump your trash can on the floor and then try to NOT look at it or need to clean it up. This is what I think we do to our dogs, considering also that I could be totally off my rocker about this. But I do know that I use "leave it" and "oops" far far less often when I give the dog a choice and am sufficiently fun and exciting that they choose me.
That's what I wanted you to do with Lexi, give her a choice instead of trying to control her every move. We can't control their every move, we aren't there every second and there is always going to come that moment when they just get loose. If they do and they haven't learned how to make choices that lead to us, then there is an issue and a possibly dead cat.
Yes, Lexi got aroused. But is that a bad thing? She was still engaged with you, just at a higher level of arousal then usual. I tend to handle that with a flirt pole or pushing instead of something intended to calm. Give them an outlet for the arousal instead of trying to remove it with no resolution.
Please give me your thoughts on this. I know what I've experienced with my own dogs and client dogs over the last 5 years of choice and game training, but I've never asked what others thought about it. I just waited until they saw the results.
I would like you to think about a couple of things here. Traditionally in training for distractions, its always been "ignore it at all costs" endeavor. I think this attitude has colored training for a long time and been the cause of needing to totally control the dog. That control manifests in corrections and negative reinforcement tools like e-collars, but I've also seen it in the clicker world where the dog ends up so overly controlled by the human it's hard to tell the dog was clicker trained and not correction trained.
But to me it's always seemed like the elephant in the room. You can't look at it, but you have to keep your attention on it so that you know where it is so that you don't look at it. It creates conflict and confusion and major stress. Try it sometime. Dump your trash can on the floor and then try to NOT look at it or need to clean it up. This is what I think we do to our dogs, considering also that I could be totally off my rocker about this. But I do know that I use "leave it" and "oops" far far less often when I give the dog a choice and am sufficiently fun and exciting that they choose me.
That's what I wanted you to do with Lexi, give her a choice instead of trying to control her every move. We can't control their every move, we aren't there every second and there is always going to come that moment when they just get loose. If they do and they haven't learned how to make choices that lead to us, then there is an issue and a possibly dead cat.
Yes, Lexi got aroused. But is that a bad thing? She was still engaged with you, just at a higher level of arousal then usual. I tend to handle that with a flirt pole or pushing instead of something intended to calm. Give them an outlet for the arousal instead of trying to remove it with no resolution.
Please give me your thoughts on this. I know what I've experienced with my own dogs and client dogs over the last 5 years of choice and game training, but I've never asked what others thought about it. I just waited until they saw the results.
First -yes you are right :) it wasn't stealing reinforcement but was arousal -two different things -thanks for straightening that in my head .
Traditionally in training for distractions, its always been "ignore it at all costs" endeavor I am a cross over trainer and yes for twenty odd years I believed this . Any time my dogs looked at something it was a pop of the leash . It was lexi who taught me this tactic was full of sh**
Funny you talk about the elephant in the room as it is what I try to tell people about how I train. Except I say imagine being concerned about spiders and if I said DONT LOOK -could you really do that knowing they were out there . Distance away from the spider would help but you still would want to look .
Here in Newfoundland there is a slow change in how people train but for the most it is still I MUST CONTROL THE DOG .
That's what I wanted you to do with Lexi, give her a choice instead of trying to control her every move.
I'm trying ....oh boy I 'm trying . It goes back to slowly increasing the 'criteria" and I want to set her up for success so when you said I could place JD in the crate I was ok with that . I felt , lol , like i was more in "control " of the set up , if you know what i mean .
If they do and they haven't learned how to make choices that lead to us, then there is an issue and a possibly dead cat.
exactly
But I do know that I use "leave it" and "oops" far far less often when I give the dog a choice and am sufficiently fun and exciting that they choose me.
Believe it or no,t neither do I however , would you agree in those times of sudden environmentals that if we have practiced these words they can be a life saver . I am hoping as we move forward in these games her choice will ignore will become stronger especially when we do the prey class .
Yes, Lexi got aroused. But is that a bad thing? She was still engaged with you, just at a higher level of arousal then usual
hmm true .... I will ponder this :) However I was very pleased with her ability to focus and heel with such a distraction and have the ability to calm herself . this is self control -yes .
Give them an outlet for the arousal instead of trying to remove it with no resolution.
this is why I used the tug - I knew there was a greater chance of setting up for success .
Great conversation and questions
Looking forward to adding movement
Traditionally in training for distractions, its always been "ignore it at all costs" endeavor I am a cross over trainer and yes for twenty odd years I believed this . Any time my dogs looked at something it was a pop of the leash . It was lexi who taught me this tactic was full of sh**
Funny you talk about the elephant in the room as it is what I try to tell people about how I train. Except I say imagine being concerned about spiders and if I said DONT LOOK -could you really do that knowing they were out there . Distance away from the spider would help but you still would want to look .
Here in Newfoundland there is a slow change in how people train but for the most it is still I MUST CONTROL THE DOG .
That's what I wanted you to do with Lexi, give her a choice instead of trying to control her every move.
I'm trying ....oh boy I 'm trying . It goes back to slowly increasing the 'criteria" and I want to set her up for success so when you said I could place JD in the crate I was ok with that . I felt , lol , like i was more in "control " of the set up , if you know what i mean .
If they do and they haven't learned how to make choices that lead to us, then there is an issue and a possibly dead cat.
exactly
But I do know that I use "leave it" and "oops" far far less often when I give the dog a choice and am sufficiently fun and exciting that they choose me.
Believe it or no,t neither do I however , would you agree in those times of sudden environmentals that if we have practiced these words they can be a life saver . I am hoping as we move forward in these games her choice will ignore will become stronger especially when we do the prey class .
Yes, Lexi got aroused. But is that a bad thing? She was still engaged with you, just at a higher level of arousal then usual
hmm true .... I will ponder this :) However I was very pleased with her ability to focus and heel with such a distraction and have the ability to calm herself . this is self control -yes .
Give them an outlet for the arousal instead of trying to remove it with no resolution.
this is why I used the tug - I knew there was a greater chance of setting up for success .
Great conversation and questions
Looking forward to adding movement
Tug is great, and I use that also, but two of my dogs prefer the flirt pole and one LOVES to push. So we use those and I teach everything I can to my clients so they have a toolbox full of things to engage their dog. You'll learn about many of them in the prey class.
I too am a crossover trainer. Back before the Internet, there was rarely any other way to learn anything but from those local trainers you mentored under and I started in the mid 70's. But control was one of those things that never sat right with me. Heck, until I moved to Tucson in 2004, I never used a leash, even in public, and I never trained that with corrections of any sort P+ or R-. Not with my own dogs, although I did teach it to others :( It probably came from a young life full of control from my dad about swimming. Sometime I wonder if I would have actually made it to the Olympics instead of just #14 in the trials had I not been so controlled.
Yes, Lexi was showing great self control, which of course includes being able to think through arousal and make choices we both can live with. Even her foray to check out the crate and the cat were self controlled, she was aroused and curious, but not reactive.
BTW, have you had any more incidents like the one in your first? video when Lexi ran to the fence to see something or other?
I too am a crossover trainer. Back before the Internet, there was rarely any other way to learn anything but from those local trainers you mentored under and I started in the mid 70's. But control was one of those things that never sat right with me. Heck, until I moved to Tucson in 2004, I never used a leash, even in public, and I never trained that with corrections of any sort P+ or R-. Not with my own dogs, although I did teach it to others :( It probably came from a young life full of control from my dad about swimming. Sometime I wonder if I would have actually made it to the Olympics instead of just #14 in the trials had I not been so controlled.
Yes, Lexi was showing great self control, which of course includes being able to think through arousal and make choices we both can live with. Even her foray to check out the crate and the cat were self controlled, she was aroused and curious, but not reactive.
BTW, have you had any more incidents like the one in your first? video when Lexi ran to the fence to see something or other?
she had great difficulty the other day when I had the cat in the tree in my front yard. I was using the front door . It was not near as 'reactive " but she could not think nor respond . I will revisit this and move the cat farther back . There is a new dog on the block so this may have contributed.
Control baaaaaa try having a father in the military
Kelli and Griffin
OK so not sure I did this correctly now that I see your "go far around" lecture. At first the snake was in the grass and I was not sure he smelled it. I moved it closer and of course that got his attention. Probably not a good decision on my part but he stayed away after that one episode
Imagine for a moment (and 85% of all snake bites in the US happen in the backyard), that you and Griffin head our your door to the yard. Griffin runs off to do his business and you spot a snake just to the left of where Griffin is but basically between you and him.
Far Around is the answer to this one. You don't want Griffin to come straight back to you because that would put him too close to the snake, you want him to go "far around" so that he stays at least 10 feet away.
Get 5 more cones and put them in a semi circle with a diameter of 20 feet. Put the snake/smell/sounds in the middle of that semi circle. Now have Griffin go around the outside of all 7 cones..
Far Around is the answer to this one. You don't want Griffin to come straight back to you because that would put him too close to the snake, you want him to go "far around" so that he stays at least 10 feet away.
Get 5 more cones and put them in a semi circle with a diameter of 20 feet. Put the snake/smell/sounds in the middle of that semi circle. Now have Griffin go around the outside of all 7 cones..
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